“Intense feelings of belonging” on Mark Tonelli’s ‘Brasiliana’

Welcome to the latest episode of Harmonious World, where I interview musicians about how their music helps make the world more harmonious.

“My heart was still in Brazil” - it was a real pleasure to chat with composer and guitarist Mark Tonelli, following my review of his album Brasiliana.

Thanks to Mark for allowing me to play extracts from Brasiliana alongside our conversation.

Thank you for listening to Harmonious World. Please rate, review and share: click on the link and subscribe to support the show.

Don't forget the Quincy Jones quote that sums up why I do this: "Imagine what a harmonious world it would be if every single person, both young and old, shared a little of what he is good at doing."

Transcript

Hilary 0:24

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Harbonius World. My name is Hilary Seabrook, and for this episode, I am absolutely delighted that I'm going to be joined by Mark Tonelli. I reviewed Mark's new album Braziliana, gosh, a few months ago now, and this collection of tunes celebrates composer and guitarist Mark Tonelli's many visits to Brazil over four years, and it's a country he's come to love. So I hope you enjoy listening to my conversation talking to Mark about Braziliana. What you're listening to now is Felia Alma, which is a lovely uh beginning to this album. And I hope you enjoy listening to my conversation with Mark. Hello Mark! How are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you? Very good, thanks. Hi. Let's talk about Braziliana. Okay. It's a great album, as you know, because I reviewed it.

Mark 1:41

You did, and I appreciate the review. Thanks very much. I'm glad that you've been enjoying it.

Hilary 1:46

So can you tell my listeners how Braziliana came about, the album, because it's a very interesting project.

Mark 1:53

Yeah, it is an interesting project, and one that I never really thought would happen. Um it came about because you know, I I've had this budding interest in Brazil most of my life. It started when I was a little kid. My mom had some Jobim records, and I just kind of studied the album cover and thought he looked kind of mysterious and interesting, and Jobim didn't sound like a name that you know was familiar. And then as I got older and started studying music and guitar specifically, which is my instrument, I had a guitar teacher that got me into jazz, and you know, Brazilian music is part of part of the jazz repertoire. So I got interested in the music through that. Uh then I then I heard the lyrics in Portuguese. I heard Galcosta singing, something in Portuguese. I didn't know it was her at the time, and I was just hypnotized. I was enchanted by the sound of the language. I wanted to know what she was saying. Um even if she was just saying gibberish, I just loved the sound of it. So, you know, there was this um this you know interest in the the enchanting sound of the language. Then I continued studying the music, and eventually, years later, uh, you know, I I'll back up a second. You know, I after I heard Gal Costa, I started seeing some pictures of of Rio, you know, some of the tourist places, and I thought this place looks amazing. These people have they write beautiful music, they the sound of the language is beautiful, and the physical beauty of the of the country is astounding. I've got to go to this place. And I said that for like 30 years. I just never thought I'd go. I just dreamed about going to Brazil. And then uh several years ago I started studying the language just sort of on a whim, not really even realizing what I was about to do was gonna change my life. Um, and that was it. I was hooked. I couldn't get enough of Brazil and the language and the music, the culture. I studied anywhere from like two to five hours a day in those first couple of years. I treated it like a new instrument, you know, like I was learning another musical instrument. And I thought, boy, I've really got to come in contact with this culture. I need to go there both to you know practice my language and just to see this place that I've been dreaming about, and then that then that and that now I've been really seriously studying. I eventually got a Fulbright scholarship to go there and teach at a university, and I was able to stay there for five months for a full semester, teach at the university, travel throughout the country, perform in the city I was in, which is called Uber Langia, which is the second largest city in the state of Minas Gerais, which is a large state. Pele is from Minas Gerais. And um so uh I just fell in love with the country, the the food, the the architecture, the streets, the vibe, and the people. That's really what won me over was the the warm, loving, affectionate Brazilian people who received me so well uh during that first visit. And I didn't want to come home. I was not ready to come back to the US. Uh it was really hard to do do so, and I was kind of lost for a couple of months when I eventually did come back because you know, like I was physically here, my body was here, but my heart was still in Brazil. So I thought I've got to go back. And so I did. I kept going back. Um I took students there on an exchange and we had the students perform in an ensemble that I created of uh all Brazilian, mostly Brazilian music and some jazz. We did five performances in the city where I had done my my Fulbright grant, and then I just kept returning um to perform, to uh to travel, um, to give master classes and lectures, and um eventually I married a Brazilian. And so a lot of my trips these days are to visit my wife, and she's in the immigration process to come to the US. But in the meantime, we're going back and forth and visiting each other. Uh so but when I go back, I'm often performing or giving lectures or traveling, and so or or sometimes doing recruiting for my university. I was able to set up uh the first uh agreement, first accord for an exchange of students with my university and a Brazilian university, and so that was kind of an historic uh moment, and we're starting to receive the first uh Brazilian students. Um, so that's pretty exciting. Um and so I I just came back a few weeks ago, a couple weeks ago, not even uh from my 15th trip to Brazil. After so many trips, I started actually after the first one, I just felt such a loss that I started writing music to deal with the sense of loss, this kind of uh missing and longing for the country, which Brazilians have a really special word to describe this, which is called saudade. And we don't have that word in English, um, but it sort of captures that feeling of longing and missing and nostalgia and emotions all kind of wrapped up in in one word. And so I started writing music to you know uh to deal with these intense feelings I had of longing. And then I just kept writing, and each trip would bring new um inspiration, new ideas, new experiences as I performed with Brazilian musicians, as I traveled throughout the country, as I visited different cities, uh as I got to know more music, more composers. They inspired me to continue writing uh when I met my wife. That that was another great source of inspiration. And there are a few songs on the album about her or about us, you know. And um the on the 13th trip, I got a second Fulbright grant to Brazil, and my project was to make a recording of these compositions that I had been writing about my lived experiences in Brazil and also about my sense of longing for Brazil. And that's why the record is called Brasiliana, which is like saying Americana, you know, but sort of about things that are Brazilian, uh, the essence of Brazilian culture. And uh, you know, the songs are essentially that. They are they're expressing the essence of Brazilian culture through my eyes, through my lived experiences there.

Hilary 8:12

That would explain why there is a sense of them being Brazilian with an American touch, or American with a Brazilian touch. They're that that they're that mixture, aren't they? Some of them are more Brazilian with an American touch, and some of them are American jazz, more traditional jazz, with that taste of Brazil.

Mark 8:38

Some of them are. Um that's a that's a good insight. The the the recording was made in Brazil with all an all-brazilian band. And I needed musicians who could do both things, who could play the Brazilian styles well, and then who could also play jazz styles well. And I, you know, uh I had been performing in Brazil for so many years and got to know so many different musicians that I really was able to put together sort of a dream band that was able to realize these different styles. There was a conscious effort for some of these songs to write in Brazilian styles. For example, the very first song I wrote after returning to the US from Brazil for the first time is called Velha Alma, which means old soul. And that was written in a Bossa Nova style, very traditional Brazilian jazz style, and I did that by design. I wanted that to, I wanted that song to be about Brazil uh as played in a Brazilian style. You know, that was part of the longing to was to capture capture my feelings about Brazil, so it seemed, you know, only appropriate, only fitting that it would be in a Brazilian style. As I continued writing, however, sometimes the songs just didn't seem like they should be written in a Brazilian style. Maybe they were more uh in a jazz style or sort of in a mix or sort of something that you can't really categorize. But even so, the subject matter of the songs is still about Brazil. And you can sort of, I think, at least the the idea was that you can sort of sort of still feel the longing and feel the influence of Brazil, even if it's not um explicitly, the song is not explicitly played in a Brazilian style.

Hilary 10:16

However, it kind of comes together, it there's definitely that uh touching on both, which I think is really, really interesting. Um, the one I want to talk to you about most is Four Sided Circle, which I think is a really interesting, interesting chat track, and I'd like to start by playing a little clip of it. So, how did you compose that and where did you start from with that one?

Mark 12:17

That one actually falls in the the minority category of songs that were written pre-Brazil. Uh six of the nine songs on the recording were written post-Brazil, but a few of them were written pre-Brazil. That's one of them. And I had uh a group of songs, a small collection of songs just kind of sitting on the shelf that I had written in the years before I went to Brazil that I never wound up recording, but I felt were strong. Songs that you know deserved to be on a recording. And this recording seemed like a good opportunity to record those songs. So that one uh I I wrote uh probably a few years before I even went to Brazil. So, you know, a good eight or nine years ago, I think I wrote that. No, not quite that long, maybe seven or eight years ago, something like that. And um the the title just kind of came to me, you know, how how when you fall asleep and you're in that sort of semi-conscious state where you're still awake and you're aware of things, but your mind is like in this really relaxed state, and unusual thoughts come to your mind, sometimes very you know, with a certain clarity to them, that it's it's more difficult to achieve in a conscious state. And the term four-sided circle came to me as I was falling asleep that night. I don't know why. You know, there's no such thing as a four-sided circle, you can't have one, geometrically speaking, it's impossible. But I liked the idea. And I I can't remember if I had already written the piece or if um I had uh or if the the song title inspired the piece. I don't remember right now. But it it does happen in essentially four sections that don't necessarily always repeat or relate to each other, although there is a certain logic as the song progresses. And so I guess that would be you know sort of this the the circular nature of the song. And that but that also has four sides to it at the same time. Um I think I was listening at the time to a lot of Dave Douglas and Chris Potter. Those are huge in those guys are huge influences on my writing, um, on my playing, but more on my writing. And I actually got to work with Dave Douglas a little bit when I was in the West Point band's Jazz Nights. It was a military jazz band that I played in for 10 years. That's in residence at the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York. And uh he lived close by and brought in some of his big band arrangements uh that you know that we got to play. And then we also got to play at the Jazz Standard as part of the Festival of New Trumpet Music or Font. Um that was you know, that was run by Dave and he liked the band and so put us put us on the festival. Uh and his music is sublime. Uh the arrangements that he brought in were just uh I really can't describe they sound like they're improvised. Like an entire big band arrangement sounds like it's improvised. He writes in such an organic way uh that I I want to write that way. I want to write in a way where everything just feels fluid, where you don't know what's been written ahead of time and what's been improvised. And so I think a lot of the idea, some of the ideas for Forest Night Circle probably came you know subconsciously from Dave Douglas.

Hilary 15:42

Yeah, because I think that's what I one of the things I liked about it was I couldn't tell, because sometimes when I listen to to jazz recordings, I can absolutely tell where the writing stops and the improvising begins. But with this one, it was it was much more uh a sense of what was right, and it didn't matter whether it was improvised or written, actually.

Mark 16:06

Yeah, I just I just sort of heard the I think the initial idea, da ba-du-da-da, the kind of like this uh tritone idea, that that just came from a practice session. That's where most of my ideas come from. I think I think most writers have an idea that's just sort of they sort of stumble on by accident. And uh you're practicing, you're fooling around or whatever, messing around, and you hear an idea that sort of strikes your fancy, and you're like, whoa, that's kind of cool. Let me chase that. And that's I think what happened. And then from just that little germ of an idea, the whole composition sprang, and just one suggest one you know section just sort of suggested the next section. Um and um, you know, that's that's kind of how it happened. And uh the nice thing about playing with the musicians in Brazil is that they were able to play that piece really authentically. You know, you wouldn't think, oh, that sounds like Brazilian musicians playing jazz, you just think that sounds like jazz musicians, and so yeah, um, they will really were able to pull off all the different sections of the piece and make it feel cohesive.

Hilary 17:11

Yeah. So what are your plans for um the I mean the album's been out for a couple of months now? Are you touring it? Are you gonna tour it? What are your plans?

Mark 17:24

Yeah, I've been um playing some of the selections from the album on gigs. Um we did a launch party uh about a week after the album came out. It came out on March 13th, and so the following week, March 21st, we we did a launch party gig. I did that in um Cape Girardo, Missouri. They have a really nice, a beautiful venue there uh called uh Scout Hall. And I had already played a show there with uh kind of a Brazilian show, and I thought this would be a perfect venue for the launch concert. And um so that went really well. And what we did on that show, which was I've never done this before, was that we played selections from the album. We also played other music as well, but um, you know, there was a filmmaker who got interested in my story and approached me about making a documentary about the making of the album and the background behind it and the events in my life that led me up to going to Brazil, returning many times, and eventually making this album. And he finished, we we finished, we worked on it together uh over the course of about six months and finished it, I guess about a month and a half ago, maybe two months. It's on a festival circuit right now, was recently accepted to a film festival in Spain, the Madrid India Film Festival. And we're hoping to be accepted to other festivals as well. So the film will debut later this year. Um but I premiered the trailer for the film at the concert, and then sort of did a QA with the audience about the film and about the album. And so it was kind of this three-part adventure. Play the music, show the trailer, have a QA. And the most exciting, most fun part was the QA. People had really interesting questions. There were some Brazilians in the audience, they had questions, you know. And then there were some Americans who had been to Brazil, so they had questions, and then just people who were sort of interested in this what's a I guess a fairly unusual project for an American. Yeah. Spend so much time in Brazil, make a recording there, and then have a film made about the recording, you know. So it um, you know, it engendered a lot of generated a lot of interesting discussion. So I'm trying to do that. That's what I'm touring, is that project.

Hilary 19:42

Yeah.

Mark 19:42

And so I have some lined up for the fall. I'll be in Iowa, Tennessee, and Kentucky doing that. So I have a little tour lined up for the fall. In the meantime, I'm also playing with my band, my Brazilian band here in the U.S., based in St. Louis called Afulia. And so we're also doing some of that music. And we're out, we'll actually be on a TV show in St. Louis in a couple of weeks called My St. Louis Live. And the the music part is called The Stage. So we'll be on this show called The Stage, and we'll do do some of that music there, and then the next day we'll actually do a concert in St. Louis at a club called The Dark Room. So that's kind of what I'm doing with the project.

Hilary 20:19

Yeah, that's that's fantastic. Um, I love the idea of showing a trailer and then having a QA and also doing the music because it kind of brings everything in, doesn't it? It brings the story in, but also the music that sort of partly tells the story, but it's certainly inspired by the story.

Mark 20:39

Yeah, I mean, you know, when you go to a concert, there might be some visuals, right? There might be a screen where you see the a uh a close-up of the performer, or there might be some sort of like um special effects or whatever on the screen that enhance the show, especially if it's a pop show, right? That doesn't happen so much at jazz shows, however. You just go and you listen to the music because the music sort of speaks for itself, right? Uh, not that pop music doesn't do that, but you know, the visual is aspect is very much part of the spectacle of a pop show. Not so much with jazz. So just the idea that we have this visual aspect and that it's about the music and the recording that we're playing, the music from, adds a dimension that I just think people don't necessarily expect. Um the launch was very successful, so I'm hoping that the future shows, the sort of more shows I'm doing with this idea of the film and the QA, wind up being just as interesting for audiences.

Hilary 21:34

Yeah, and I love the concept of that because it's about people from one culture trying to understand people from another culture. And that's a wonderful thing.

Mark 21:44

Oh, you said that perfectly. Um, you know, one one of the taglines we've been using for the film, and by the way, if your listeners are interested, you can they can check out the film's uh Instagram page. It's called Brasiliana the Film. Or they can just go to my My Instagram page, Mark.tanelli. You know, one of the taglines we've been using is a love story between between two nations. And that's something that I actually say in the film on one of the interviews in the film. That's for me how it feels going back and forth to Brazil over so many years. One thing I've noticed traveling a lot to other countries as well. I've been very fortunate to do a lot of traveling, including I spent quite a bit of time in England years ago when I was working on a cruise ship and love UK culture and so wonderful, so charming. Everybody was so friendly and so nice, and um and I I actually really loved the food too, you know. So just having traveled a lot, but most more specifically recently to Brazil, you just learn that people are the same wherever you go. They have the same hopes, the same dreams, the same aspirations. Um we sort of get hung up on the differences, but I think the commonalities, what we have in common, are much more important. And that's what I've discovered in Brazil, that um they they like Americans, especially in the smaller cities. If you go to Sao Paulo where I did I have spent a considerable amount of time, they're more used to tourists and used to Americans, but really outside of those big cities like Rio and Sao Paulo, an American at all, never mind an American who stays for a length of time and performs and teaches in a small city, that's a total novelty for them. And I have literally been treated like I was royalty in some of these cities. It's been it was so humbling, the people were so lovely, so wonderful. And how can you not love them? You know, how can you just not want to keep going back and being around such wonderful people who are so open to that openness to receive another culture, to learn about another culture? That's for me one of the biggest lessons in going back and forth to Brazil. And I've tried to bring that lesson back to the US and spread Brazilian culture here, which is not something that we study in the US. We don't study Brazilian history, we don't study Brazilian culture. We're lucky if we learn enough about our own culture and geography, you know, in school. And so when I perform concerts, I make a point of telling the stories of my experiences in Brazil. Sometimes I may tell the story about how I learned a particular song we're playing, or what inspired it, or where I was, or you know, who um you know who suggested the song to me, recommended it to me. And people come up after the concerts and they say, you know, I felt like I went to Brazil. I've never been there, but through your descriptions, I really felt like I went there, and I love so much that you told those stories. And for them that's you know, sometimes the most meaningful part, connecting the music with the people, with the culture. Um and if I can do in some small way, if I can break down some barriers that we as human beings seem to have when we arbitrarily draw lines and borders across nations, then I feel like I've I've done something good.

Hilary 25:14

Absolutely. I think that's I think that's wonderful, and that's the sense that I got from from the tracks, from the tunes, and then from really immersing myself in that whole album, and then hearing then sort of finding out about the story about how it actually happened. Um I think it's a wonderful thing, and I think if you can if we can do something about breaking barriers down wherever we are in the world, I think that's a really good thing. So thank you for sharing that.

Mark 25:48

Thanks so much for your interest in the album. I'm I'm glad you're enjoying it. Um you said that you immersed yourself in the album, so I I really appreciate that.

Hilary 25:56

Yeah, I really liked it, really, really enjoyed it. Um I'm looking forward, I'm gonna definitely check out the film when I can.

Mark 26:04

Yeah, the the film will come out later this year after it's done its festival run. Festivals want exclusivity. So if you premiere a film, if you show publicly, you can't participate in the festival. And the festival is what generates traction and publicity and interest and you know, maybe a future distribution. So we wanna we want to uh obey the festival rules.

Hilary 26:25

Definitely. Well, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Mark. It's been a real pleasure talking to you.

Mark 26:32

Oh, likewise, Hilary. Thanks so much for having me. I enjoyed so much the conversation.

Hilary 27:09

I shall definitely be checking out the trader. I'll put all the links in the show notes. What you're listening to now is end of an era. Please do share, rate, and review this episode wherever you get your podcasts, and tell your friends about Harmonious World because, as Mark said, it's all about breaking down the borders. Thank you for joining me once more for Harmonious World, and I hope you have a good week.