Sean Imboden joins me to discuss ‘Uncharted Realms’

Welcome to the latest episode of Harmonious World, where I interview musicians about how their music helps make the world more harmonious.

Sean Imboden has released Uncharted Realms, his second album for large ensemble. It was great to chat with him about the compositions and recording process.

Thanks to Sean for allowing me to play extracts from Uncharted Realms alongside our conversation.

Thank you for listening to Harmonious World. Please rate, review and share: click on the link and subscribe to support the show.

Don't forget the Quincy Jones quote that sums up why I do this: "Imagine what a harmonious world it would be if every single person, both young and old, shared a little of what he is good at doing."

Transcript

Hilary 0:37

Imagine humble minutes quote, everyone's humble needs to anyone with an interest in getting them to level good. Professionals winners nominated from me to level award. And so starting out. Alongside humble newsboard from my blog, which is refused of live games and put me to the link to the show note. I do want to quickly say yeah, thank you for my support and listen. I'm really grateful for you. I'm going to support you can support me financially by going to patreon.com or the Patreon website, with the tip note. And what you're listening to now is definitely not. It's lovely, lovely. And I hope you enjoyed listening to my conversation about it with Sean Impulse. Hello. Hi Hillary. Hi Sean, how are you doing?

Sean 2:00

I'm great. How are you?

Hilary 2:02

Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Thank you for joining me on Harmonious World. I am really excited. This is a great album.

Sean 2:09

Thank you.

Hilary 2:10

So Uncharted Realms is the second album of your kind of big band era.

Sean 2:17

Yeah, that's right. Uh we did the first one last year, Communal Heart, and uh this is the second one that just came out. And uh we actually just last month we recorded the third one, so we're gonna have a third one coming out next spring. And uh if I can, I mean, this might be uh too unrealistic of a goal. Hopefully not. I'd love to do one every year if if we can make it happen. Um, it's just such an enjoyable and fulfilling project, you know. It's just it seems a like a worthwhile to thing to try to keep going if we can do it.

Hilary 2:48

So, what is the music? Is the music your compositions or is it a mixture of things?

Sean 2:54

It is all mine uh my compositions so far for both the first and the second album. Uh for the third album, uh, we did actually record all standards or covers. Uh, and I just, you know, because I love doing other people's music too, I love arranging other people's music. But yeah, these first two albums, it's it's all my originals. Some of the tunes I wrote first uh for kind of like a small group jazz setting originally, and I would play some of the tunes with like a quartet or a quintet, and then you know, if I like the tune well enough and I can sort of imagine I'll start to think to myself, oh, you know, I could really expand this to the full 17-piece ensemble and I can just do so much more with it. You have so many more colors to work with and voices within the group. So to me, I if I have a really good piece, even if it's just maybe like a 16-bar tune, if if I like the melody and a chord progression, then I can start to really expand and try to think creatively beyond that. What's possible in terms of you know writing for the big band? I can think about extending an intro and then really growing and developing a big maybe middle soully section. And but I kind of like it where it the focus doesn't always have to be on the soloist. I can really highlight the band, and then the soloist can sort of be just a little special glitter throughout the whole performance. So I like being able to mix things up like that. So yeah, all my original music and um, you know, just trying to develop and see what else I can come up with.

Hilary 4:26

Also, I think one of the things that I liked about this album is the, like you say, the different textures and the different colours that you can get by sort of focusing on trumpets or from you know, a sack solly or yeah, you know, whatever. And it's uh it's it's really nice. And sometimes sort of stripping it back to the the rhythm section and building that as the bass and then adding other things. And I I like that the different colours that you get.

Sean 4:54

Oh, thank you. Yeah, and that's one of the things I realized too, is that there's so much strength uh musically within the ensemble where I really can just let it be just bass and drums for a bit, and then we're seeing a whole sort of different set of colors coming through when we can really focus on that. And then I can bring in other instruments and let it layer and build in all sorts of different interesting ways. So it there's just so much to work with. And to me, that's what you know really I think drives a lot of the creativity is just this it almost feels like exponential possibilities in terms of orchestrating ideas, and that just leads to more ideas, and then I can just sort of develop, and it's it's yeah, it's really been a joy just you know working with this band.

Hilary 5:40

Yeah. So what about the recording process? Do you record kind of live as was, or or do you sort of strip things back? How do you do it?

Sean 5:50

We do try to do live as much as we possibly can. Uh, it seems like the sort of the right strategy now is to plan on two full takes for each piece. And what that does is we have a really great engineer, and and typically then the second take is usually the one that we go with and we use almost the entirety of the second take. Now, the nice thing too, even if we're not using a click track, um the the tempos are usually close enough where if somebody missed something on the second take, the engineer can take it if they got it on the first take and move it into the second take. So we try, you know, not to do that as much as we need to, uh, or very much at all. But if we have to, then we can. And the way we're setting up in the studio, too, we do have sound barriers in between most of the horns. The rhythm section all is all isolated. But if there is something too where there's not too much bleed, then somebody can overdub something if they need to to fit it in that second take if they missed it or there was like a small mistake or you know, whatever it is. Um I don't think we've well, I don't know if we've done a third take on any of the the charts, that would probably be like an emergency situation where something just completely went wrong. But typically two takes is good, and uh, you know, the biggest thing that I've realized now, and it's it's getting better every time is you know, if I can get the band the music early, we have plenty of rehearsal time and performances before the recording session, then recording is just gonna go so much smoother. If they're coming in, you know, they've known the music, they've played it for a while, they're like, Oh, yeah, we know how this goes, we know what to listen for, we know how to lock in with everybody around us. Then it's just a matter of focusing, doing it a couple of times, and we get really close, and then just like a little bit of editing and tweaking when we're mixing and mastering to help polish and you know, tighten up all the little edges and things like that. But um, yeah, I mean, and to me, that's one of the the joys of getting just to do this more, is that I learn so much every time through the process, and then I try to take that knowledge into the next recording session and just get better and better, and then ask other people who are more experienced. You know, I I have people that work with me as producers who have been doing this much longer than me, and they'll come in and they'll give me feedback on the mixes, or they'll be there in the studio with us giving feedback on the day that we're recording. So, you know, just trying to like stay open as far as the things that I need to learn and not uh get too hard-headed and think that I know it all because I certainly don't. So, you know, yeah, but that's pretty much what we do, yeah.

Hilary 8:26

Yeah, and it was interesting what you were saying there about, you know, if you've got a group of musicians and you're rehearsing and then you're performing, if you then take those pieces into the studio, there is a familiarity that then allows for the the corners to be knocked off it a little bit in terms of, you know, it feels a little bit more not easy, I don't mean that, but you know, it just feels a little bit more straightforward that you know what you're doing. Everybody knows what they're doing.

Sean 8:55

Absolutely, and it gives a another level of uh a sense of freedom throughout the band because it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be so set where you're playing exactly maybe what we played last time, because they know how it went last time, and now they if they want to, they can slightly deviate in certain places if they feel it in the moment. And and just to have that flexibility, they don't always have, especially not if they're like sight reading something new or or it's the second or third time they've played something, but once they get comfortable with it, it opens things up and then they can say, Oh, why don't we try this here, especially with the rhythm section? I'd love just to let them have their freedom because when they do that, then they can really shine and and do their thing. Whereas if if I'm forcing them to just play always what's on the page, that's not necessarily the best. So we like we learn what's on the page, and then we can sort of deviate as we feel it's uh necessary or interesting in the moment.

Hilary 9:46

Yeah, one of the things that I find really interesting is as tunes or compositions develop is the idea of tempo and how tempos change. Because you sometimes, you know, as a composer, you come up with something and you go, right, this is how it's gonna go, and it's you know, whatever. And when you actually do it in performance, sometimes it's like actually it needs to be slower or it needs to be faster, or this section needs to go a different speed, or whatever.

Sean 10:15

Oh, absolutely. I mean, tempo is such an interesting element of this whole thing because it can be, and sometimes if it's like 10 clicks too fast, it's like you're all of a sudden you're like, oh no, that's wrong. We gotta take it down, and you just feel that. And that's what the things are. Some tunes feel like they can be played at almost any tempo, at least for me, and then other tunes feel like it needs to be at this specific thing, and so yeah, I one thing I I really like trying to do, and and you know, I think I'm getting better at this too, where I allow more input, especially from like the rhythm section, because they're so always thinking about tempo, and they're always like playing the tempo all the time and locking in with each other, is getting their feedback. I uh, you know, even in the middle of the song, I'll I remember this happened just not that long ago on one of the games. I'm looking at the drummer and I'm saying, Are we a little fast? And he's like, No, it's good. And this is in the middle of the song because I'm kind of you know looking at him because he's the one that control it, he can bring it down or speed it up slightly if he wants to. So I'm looking at those guys and trying to get that feedback because you know they know and they're in it playing it, so and trying not to be too much of like a dictator as a leader, but being open to that feedback in the moment and then letting things flow if they need to.

Hilary 11:29

Yeah, and I think drummers especially that's part of their job, isn't it? Is to sit there and kind of feel where the tempo is and feel when it's it could go on a bit or it needs to be pulled back a bit.

Sean 11:46

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And and letting them do that sometimes, and just sort of seeing if they choose to do that, and then you know, but not taking control, but letting it go where they feel like it wants to go naturally. That's such a useful skill. And uh, you know, my background, even before I really became a band leader standing out in front of the band, conducting a bit and counting off tunes, I was always just playing. And so for me, I I'm glad that I had that perspective first as a musician because now I I know what they're thinking when they're sitting there in the band. If they're thinking it feels good, great. If they, you know, I can kind of be in their head and say, Oh, this needs to be, we need to look at this, we need to fix this, tighten this up, or think about what's happening with the tempo. I have that perspective, so I that's helpful for me, and I think the band can sort of recognize that too. But having that first, because we've all worked with conductors who, you know, it was clear they never really sat in the band, they never had the perspective of being one of the musicians playing. Um, and so it's nice to have that too, and then just take that and and uh be able to zoom out and then use that perspective when I'm leading the band too.

Hilary 12:53

Yeah. So, you know, this this large ensemble thing for you is quite new, isn't it?

Sean 13:00

Well, we actually started, let's see, we had our very first rehearsal, I believe, in uh well, was it nine years ago now? But we didn't actually start recording music until a couple of years ago. So I was playing, we were playing gigs for a while. I was starting to think about recording and wanted to do it. And uh the first couple of times we tried, it was just too difficult either to get all the musicians together on the schedule and you know, figure out how where we were gonna do it, you know, how we were gonna fund it, all these like sort of factors that were I was just trying to get nailed down. And then eventually got to the point after COVID, the music was sounded really good. I was really happy with how it was going and sounding and the arrangements and compositions and everything. And I was like, How are we gonna do this? We gotta figure out a way. And I thought, okay, we have this one studio not far from where we all are located. That's I know it's got a great engineer. I hadn't done a big band recording there, but I'd done a lot of small group work there. So I kind of talked to him and said, Okay, could we do a big band thing? He's like, Yeah, let's do it. And then I thought to myself, okay, we're starting to get decent crowds to come to our shows. What if I launched a Kickstarter just to see if we can get some crowdfunding for this first album? And luckily it succeeded. We were able to uh get our meet our goal for the Kickstarter. We scheduled the first album recording, and it you know, luckily it went great. And so after that, I was just like, oh, we have to keep doing this. I love doing this, I'm really excited about it. So now um we this spring we recorded the second one, but we also uh just got a 501c3 nonprofit status uh this spring, which means now we can get funding from foundations and other corporations, things like that. So now I'm trying to think more long term about how we can sustain this, how we can keep it going. Um and just trying to be creative, just as I am with the music in from that business side of things, which is newer to me, but I enjoy it. I enjoyed you know the challenge and you know, learning new things about that too. So we're just trying to find ways of of keeping the ball in the air at this point.

Hilary 15:03

Yeah. So of course, I mean, this is only like you know, Mozart had people who commissioned him for stuff all the time. It's this feels a little bit more democratic because Kickstarter, I think, is a wonderful thing because it means you know, people can contribute 10 10 pounds, $10, you know, or they can contribute $10,000 if they if they want to. And I really like that.

Sean 15:27

Oh, yeah, it's it's great. And it one thing that it sort of did for me, it made me not scared to ask for help. Um, that's something where I was always like, oh, I can do it all on my own, you know, I can write the music, I can figure everything out, all the details on my own. And maybe, maybe I can, but it it makes more sense when we sort of come together as a community. And that was really the impetus behind that even the album title of the first album, Communal Heart, which was not only that sense of community I felt within the band, but then when we reached out and asked for help and said, Oh, can you support this artistic project that lives in your community that we're trying to build? Would you be willing to do that? And luckily, people said yes. So now I'm always thinking about that. And you never really know about something until you ask and you try. And the worst thing that would happen is they say no, and then it's like, okay, that's fine, maybe next time. Or I they say no, but try this person instead, or you have you thought about doing this, and then you might learn something that you didn't know about before. So for me, it's just like, okay, I'm all gonna try everything, I'm gonna throw a bunch of darts against the wall, see what sticks, and just move move on from what I've got. So it's always just a matter of not being scared to try or to ask for something.

Hilary 16:40

Yeah. It the music business is definitely a business, and you've got to kind of work out where you need to where how you need to manage that rather than thinking you can't, thinking you can just be creative and ignore everything else, which you realistically can't.

Sean 17:00

Absolutely, absolutely. I see a a lot of musicians who uh have always focused on the creative part and never really decide to tackle the business side. And uh while they still might be putting out great music, they haven't sort of created the opportunities for themselves that they could have if they had been a little bit more open to the business side. And it's something I'm always trying to be aware of because I I do think my strength lies in more of the creative work, especially just in terms of like either improvising or writing music, but yeah, you have to be willing to work within the world that we live in now, which has sort of setways in terms of either booking gigs or working in studios or actually putting out music. You know, how are you going to, you know, are you gonna get a distributor? Are you gonna get a publicist or whatever you're gonna do to actually put your product out there into the world? So you have to sort of see how it how the system operates and then choose to live in that, or if you choose to ignore it, you just sort of have to understand, you know, maybe what you're missing out on. So just trying to be open for those possibilities. And I I know even someone like you is very uh skilled and and very uh experienced in all that because of all the things like writing, performing, podcasting, everything that you do. You're someone who's like really lived that and not been afraid to take on all sorts of different hats and and skill sets. So I even saw like on your on your podcast, I'm I'm cute excited to go listen that you interviewed Maria Schneider, one of my out uh one of my heroes and one of my idols, somebody who I who I was definitely sort of modeling my band after when I started it because I love her music.

Hilary 18:39

So yeah, well, that was that wouldn't have happened without lockdown.

Sean 18:45

Oh, sure, yeah.

Hilary 18:47

Because she's just so busy and she, you know, she just wouldn't have had the time for a little and and then I mean that I'd only been going a couple of months then, and you know, it was a really big thing, but um I am actually finding that you know I've I've I interviewed Christian McBride and you know, he gave me an hour of his time in London when he was here, you know, last year, a couple of years ago. And you know, I think most people are kind of going, you know, well, let's let's chat, because you because people are interesting, interesting to chat to and then interested in what we're chatting about and that sort of thing. So but what you're going back to what you were saying about, you know, you have to kind of you either understand the business and go with it, or you choose not to. And it's the same with social media, I think, you know, that that I completely understand people who say, I'm not gonna do, I'm not gonna do any social media, um, I'm just gonna do it, you know. I don't know how you I don't know how you get to audiences. I I just genuinely don't know.

Sean 19:55

Well, it is very it's very tricky. And even for me personally, I do I've seen the power of even just one Facebook post, especially on like a local scene. So say like your personal Facebook page is very good for the people that you actually know in person or or live relatively close to. So if we're booking a gig, we have a really great venue here in Indianapolis, the Jazz Kitchen. If I'm booking a show there, if I want to sell tickets, I know I have to be active on my first personal Facebook page the couple months leading up to that show. And it does make a big difference in terms of like getting the word out. And you know, there's the old advertising adage of like you have to see something 10 times before you decide to buy it, even if it's something that you already knew you wanted, you just have to be reminded of it and refreshed in your mind. So I think about that when I'm starting to get the word out about a performance, but at the same time, you know, especially with Instagram, it's it's so finely tuned to make you always want to look at it on your phone all the time. And so if right after a gig I've been promoting heavily, I actually delete Facebook and Instagram off my phone for a few weeks just to give myself a break and so that I I'm also not tempted to go on there and waste like hours every day just scrolling, not knowing what I'm scrolling for. It's it's really tricky because it really does hack your brain, but it's a powerful tool if you can sort of harness it and understand how to use it. So that combined with like um an email mailing address for me has been really big with like, especially in terms of like selling tickets for gig. So yeah, it's something that I'm really trying to balance and just be smart with. And that just sort of goes along with like being your own boss in terms of being a freelancer and being a musician. You have to sort of uh navigate the boss aspect, but then be your own uh good employee too, and know that you're working, but then you have to create the schedule and and the tasks and the requirements, and then also fulfill those things, but then also judge how you're doing it yourself if you're on if you're your own boss. So it's tricky, but you know, yeah.

Hilary 21:59

Yeah. No, it it is tricky. And you do have to uh you do have to manage your own time and uh you know be aware of I'm very conscious when I'm on Instagram that I'm I well I know when I've reached the point where I need to just go stop.

Sean 22:17

Yeah.

Hilary 22:17

Just just leave it, just walk away, you know.

Sean 22:21

Absolutely. And but it is it's so interesting because especially uh younger people are I you know I teach a lot of college students in their early 20s, where that's essentially how they are discovering new music and new art is they'll just scroll on Instagram and whatever is recommended to them, you know, I'll have a student come into their lesson and I'll say, like, okay, what are you listening to? What are you checking out? And they'll say, Oh, this person, I'll say, I've never heard of that person. And I'll say, How'd you find them? I was like, Oh, Instagram. It's like, oh, okay. And then I'll say, like, okay, have you have you heard Joe Lavano or Mark Turner or Donnie McCaslin? And they'll be like, No, I've never heard of those people. And I'm like, okay, so let's I'm glad you're discovering these new people, but now we need to really discover these established players who have been huge for decades on the scene and you know, trying to strike a balance between the two. Um so it yeah, at least, you know, if artists can have not that that they have necessarily have to have a social media presence, but just a landing point where a young person can go, if you know, and I think most of them do now, but you know, if I can say like, okay, go check out Joe Lavano's Instagram and then that'll help you find his albums, that sort of thing. Yeah, even if you're not posting every hour of every day, you know, if somebody just has something that they can go find, at least that's a good start.

Hilary 23:39

Exactly. Exactly. One of the things I, you know, I Joe Lavano is a great example because one of the things he does is he quite often posts pictures when he meets up with somebody, you know, there's some another big name, and you know, they'll just put a photograph up and uh you know, and that's kind of that's kind of nice because it gives context and it gives a sense that they're out in the world doing their stuff, you know.

Sean 24:03

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's true. And and yeah, not being afraid to share your journey, whether it's you're out at a gig or even if you're in the practice room writing a new composition, you know, for me it's fascinating when somebody like Chris Potter posts even just like a minute of himself practicing, because yeah, he's on that level where I can still like just learn so much just by a little peek uh into the window of his mind in terms of how he works creatively, how he works on his craft. And it's inspiring too, just to see little things like that. So uh yeah, I mean it is it is tricky though to balance that with you know just sort of going into your creative cave and you know coming up with your creations and and you know, I think a lot of people just sort of want to wait until the final product is polished before they put anything out to the world. And I understand that, but if it's it's fascinating for artists and fans to sort of see a little bits and pieces of the journey along the way. So if you're willing to share that, it's I think super valuable.

Hilary 25:06

Yeah, I agree. And also I think you know, that thing about going in the creative cave, I one of the things I really like is when I go, where's my phone? And I've forgotten where I've put it because I haven't looked at it because I've just been doing so many money, you know, other things.

Sean 25:22

I I'm the same exact way. I I mean for me, if ideally, if I can like not even look in my email for like three days, I know that's pretty much impossible because it's then I'm missing something or I'm not responding to someone, but it's it is such a sort of like a weight off of sort of the minute to minute processing of our brain. If we're always looking at something and always responding to something, but if we can sort of take that away, it I guess it allows it sort of a data detox mentally where then you can just sort of refresh and focus on what you're feeling, maybe like actually look at a tree outside and fully take in its beauty as opposed to thinking about oh, I didn't respond to that one person's email. Yeah, but it's so hard to yeah to balance it. And so I know it's something we're all sort of trying to get better at, you know.

Hilary 26:16

Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. But in fact, it's interesting because going back to what we were saying, talking about tempo when you're composing and performing and stuff, and it's about tempo in your life as well, isn't it? You know, you need the downside down time as much as you need the the dancing around your kitchen kind of stuff.

Sean 26:32

Yes, yeah, for sure. I I like to think because when I think about like the co composing side, at least with practicing, I can get by with practicing maybe 20 minutes here or there throughout the day if I need to just fit it in. But composing is so much harder. I feel like I I have to really have longer blocks of time if I'm really gonna get some good composition work done. And so trying to block that time off where, yeah, my phone is off and in a different room, and I know I'm not even tempted, and then I can really let my brain fully go into whatever this thing is that I'm working on. So, you know, trying to have that is is precious time and and just trying to stick to that is difficult, but I but important for trying to get the work done.

Hilary 27:18

Yeah. Fantastic. What a lovely conversation. Thank you so much, Sean. It's been really interesting. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, brilliant. And good luck with the album. And I look forward to hearing the third one as well.

Sean 27:32

Well, thank you. Yeah, I'll I'll be sure it's uh sent out, and uh I'd I'd love to chat with you again in the future. It's it's lovely meeting you and seeing what you're up to. So thank you very much.

Hilary 28:12

What you're listening to now is When You Look Beyond, which is also taken from uncharted realms. Please remember you can find reviews of albums and live geeks at hilaristebook.co.uk. And please get in touch if there's any comments that you'd like to make. Until the next episode, if you can rate review Harmonious World on Apple Podcasts or wherever you find this, that would really help others to discover the show. If you go to my Patreon site, you'll find merchandising offers. It'd be great if you could support me, but thank you for listening. That in itself is wonderful. Have a great week.