A contemporary take on the wind quintet with Jeff Lederer

Welcome to the latest episode of Harmonious World, where I interview musicians about how their music helps make the world more harmonious.

I’m joined for this episode by saxophonist, clarinettist and composer Jeff Lederer to discuss his latest album - There’s a Yearnin’ - this intensely interesting album is a historic first recording of long-buried works by Eric Dolphy, Ornette Coleman and Oliver Nelson.

Thanks to Jeff for allowing me to play extracts from There’s a Yearnin’ alongside our conversation.

Thank you for listening to Harmonious World. Please rate, review and share: click on the link and subscribe to support the show.

Don't forget the Quincy Jones quote that sums up why I do this: "Imagine what a harmonious world it would be if every single person, both young and old, shared a little of what he is good at doing."

Transcript

Hilary 0:24

Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of Harmonious World. My name is Hilary Seabrook. And for this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Sax Manager Flederer, whose new album, There's a Yearning, is at the moment. It's a very interesting album. I hope you enjoy our conversation. What you listen to now is the title track. I really want to say a big thank you to my subscribers and those of you that tell me that you listen regularly. So, Matt, Richard, Kieran, Daryl, Alex, Duncan, Julie, and a special thank you to Stephen who stopped me in Waitros just a few days ago. And I'm glad you're enjoying the show. So I hope you enjoy listening to my conversation with Jeff Lederer. So welcome to Harmonious World. I am delighted for this episode to be joined by fellow saxophonist, but also composer and lots of other things, Jeff Lederer. Hello, Jeff.

Jeff 1:36

Hello, Hilary. Thank you so much for inviting me into your world.

Hilary 1:40

That's brilliant. I'm really excited to be talking to you about There's a Yearning.

Jeff 1:45

Yes, it's uh we're super excited about this new recording. And ironically, while you introduced me as a saxophonist, which is what I primarily do out there in the world, I play noisy uh improvisational tender saxophone. But in fact, on this new album, I only play the clarinet, and uh that in limited uh amounts because the focus of this new album, There's a Yearning, is really on the compositional work of three jazz legends, Ornette Coleman, Oliver Nelson, uh, and Eric Dolphy. And uh so we really put the focus on that work.

Hilary 2:17

Yeah, yes, and you are working with the Wilde Beast Wind Quart Wind Quintet and singer Mary LaRose. Is that right?

Jeff 2:26

That's correct. And they're uh a great wind quintet. There are friends and neighbors here in New York City. Uh, I this particular project I did focus in on the idea of compositional works by these great jazz masters, but in this particular format of Woodwin Quintet, which, as your listeners who have a classical background know, it's been around since the mid-uh 18th century. And it but it's it's a very musty, funky kind of combination of instruments flute, oboe, bassoon, horn, and clarinet, but a fascinating uh kind of orchestration, especially when you hear a composer like Ornette Coleman write for that. And uh and one of the interesting things we'll talk about in a moment with the Ornette Coleman piece is that in fact it was generated due to the UK Musicians Union, and I'll tell that story later.

Hilary 3:16

Oh, please do. I look forward to that. But this is really interesting because I I have a tendency, uh I there are so many people that I could talk to. I have a tendency now not to talk about kind of historic things or people reinventing stuff, but this is really interesting because this is very much a new take on these pieces, isn't it?

Jeff 3:41

Well, it is, and that's a strategy that in fact I've been doing for, let's say, about three decades. And the sources that I go to, I am kind of a historical cultural context reimaginer kind of person. So I've worked with things as diverse as the music of the religious uh community, the Shakers, which of course emanates from Manchester in the UK originally. Uh sea shanties, the music of free jazz saxophonists, Albert Aller. So I I really mix up a lot of different ideas in my music making and recontextualize them. And in this case, we get a really new vision of folks that we know as great jazz saxophonists and improvisers, but we do hear them in a new way when we hear their music uh as they composed it for woodwind quintet.

Hilary 4:26

Yes, right. And that was my first question was Were all of these pieces written originally for Wind Quintet?

Jeff 4:33

Well, in fact, so two of the composers, the Ornette Coleman works and the Eric Dolphy work, which really gets kind of the brightest light shined on it because, in fact, this recording on our new album, There's a Urnin, it's the first ever hearing of a piece that Eric Dolphy composed for Woodwind Sextet in that case because he added one clarinet. Uh something he had written uh sometime in the early 1960s, but he had never recorded or performed it, and in fact, probably never heard it in his lifetime. So what a privilege and a thrill to get to share that music. And the Ornak Coleman music, uh I'll tell you very quickly, the pieces uh called Forms and Sounds were created when Ornett Coleman was traveling to the UK on a trio tour. And the UK, the musicians union, which is really quite strong, and I think it still is.

Hilary 5:23

It is, yeah.

Jeff 5:24

Which is a fantastic thing. They'd said, Mr. Coleman, please come and play your music, but we need a role for British musicians to play. And uh so they kind of negotiated that Ormond Coleman would write pieces for, he just sketched them out very relatively quickly for Woodwin Quintet, and I think they're quite brilliant pieces uh that were performed by British musicians on that tour. But the third uh composer, Oliver Nelson, those are pieces which I actually orchestrated for Woodwin Quintet based on the source of material that Oliver Nelson created. So two out of three were originally Woodwin Quintet.

Hilary 5:58

Right. And Oliver Nelson, I mean, he's a big name. I think for people who who aren't familiar, um he was, I mean, he's more big bands than anything else. Is that right?

Jeff 6:09

A brilliant arranger, composer, and he did do a lot of work with big band, but also with studio orchestras. And he was actually among these three the one that kind of transitioned into commercial success in the studios in Los Angeles in the late 1960s through the 70s, which is really quite exceptional, in fact, for an African-American musician, because there were barriers at that time for black composers and musicians in the studios. So he really was uh leading the charge on that. Um but some folks kind of yes, Oliver Nelson, a brilliant, important musician. Sometimes among these three uh that we're talking about here, he might be considered the less experimental or kind of not quite as much pushing the boundaries because his work is is really rooted not only in jazz, but in the whole scope of black American music, in the music of the church, uh spirituals and all that. It's really an amazing output. But in fact, Oliver Nelson was really within those uh contexts, he really pushed all the limits, harmonies and dissonance, and really quite a brilliant guy in the way that he wrote.

Hilary 7:20

Yeah. So uh what on earth made you start this project?

Jeff 7:26

Um so uh the as you said, the vocalist on this recording is the uh brilliant jazz vocalist artist Mary LaRose, who uh Mary and I have been working together for 30 years, over 30 years. And in fact, one of our first points of connection was the music of Oliver Nelson. We both just loved it. And Mary began writing lyrics, these beautiful lyrics to Oliver Nelson pieces. Um, and I also had a long-standing love of Oliver Nelson music. So at that sometime during that process, I was also doing research for an album that we were working on together of all Eric Dolphy compositions. And as part of that research, I was in the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C., which is an amazing national repository of books and letters, but also musical scores. So there's a collection of Eric Dolphy's original manuscripts there, and in that box I found the score for Woodwin Sextet. And I was like, wow, I've never heard this piece, and came to find out that that there's a good reason for that. The piece had never been performed or recorded. So, of course, by the way, so that you and your listeners know, uh I immediately contacted the Dolphy Estate and uh asked them if they would kindly let me work with this material, and they were really gracious in inviting me to do so.

Hilary 8:46

I bet they were delighted because uh you know, Eric Dolphy was a uh as you say, I think he sort of he he went over to the experimental side. Uh and I think he was one of those people where genre was kind of difficult to, you know, it was always difficult to uh really put him into a box because, you know, at the same time as there were both the Schoenbergs of the world and the you know, that sort of classical music nonsense that was going on in a very, very good way, you know, Dolphy was doing that more towards the jazz field. But you know, that he he to have this piece of music that had never actually been performed is wonderful.

Jeff 9:30

Well, again, a privilege and a thrill for me. I love that you just mentioned Schoenberg, by the way. I I do have a previous recording called Schoenberg on the Beach, in which I re-invent re envision Schoenberg's vocal pieces uh as a jazz song cycle. Um, but back on Eric Dolphy, you're right, he's beyond category, one of those artists who was living in that world that was termed in the 1960s uh third stream music, which I think is still an accurate uh description of what was going on, and he was quite close with composers like Gunther Schuler and this whole movement. Leonard Bernstein was in fact a big Dolphy fan as well. So he was in the mix in this area between jazz and classical music in a way that's hard to define, but really presages a lot of what we were just talking about earlier, Hillary, in that we do many of my students and younger musicians work in ways that really are beyond the traditional categories of jazz and classical music. Um, with the Dolphie Sextat, I think some of your listeners might be surprised to find that the music doesn't sound like his work on an album like Out to Lunch or or the things people think of with Eric Dolphy. In fact, this beautiful Woodwin sextat might sound like something that came from the pen of Ravel or Debussy. It's got a beautiful kind of impressionist feel to it. But knowing that this came from the mind and the heart of Eric Dolphy to me is really poignant. And at the same time, there's a little pathos to the whole thing because Mr. Dolphy didn't have the opportunity to hear this work, and he didn't have the opportunity or commissions to write more works like this. And I think that was due to s a lot of the social and racial barriers at the time. I mean, I know that for a fact from some of Mr. Dolphy's accounts of his young life. So just imagine what might have been if he had more opportunity to write in this way.

Hilary 11:29

Yeah, exactly. But I I in some ways uh the very fact that he wrote this and that you have then recorded it, it's almost that's planting a seed that then it'll be interesting to see whether other people sort of take that as an influence and and develop it further. Because I think the wind quintet sex thing is quite rare.

Jeff 11:55

I I agree, I think so. And you know, off the top of my head, I haven't been able to think of another album that is a dedicated jazz Woodwin Quintet. You might know of one, but I honestly I'm I'm not aware of one. So it's it's unique in that. And part of the project that's interesting and exciting is that I've now already starting to take this. Of course, I love to work with our friends, the Wildebeest Win Quintet, but there are other win quintets that are interested in performing this music. So I am taking it around to different professional and university groups. And so, in a way, I think it's is planting the seed of the possibilities for this ensemble in uh improvisational ways, in ways that draw on the traditions of black American music and jazz in a in a kind of a unique setting that would be new. Yeah.

Hilary 12:48

Yeah, yeah. Um I I used to know a bassoonist who uh got into jazz, and that was just I mean, the bassoon is a beautiful sound anyway. And then to to to do some improvising on that was just it was just amazing to hear that.

Jeff 13:03

Well, yeah, it's a it's a rare thing. It's a rare thing.

Hilary 13:06

Yeah, definitely.

Jeff 13:07

It it it is amazing. I work with a couple jazz bassoonists, and they're remarkable, and I think it's very, very difficult.

Hilary 13:14

Right, at this point in the podcast, I would like to play um three seconds.

Jeff 13:20

Great, wonderful.

Lyrics 13:22

It only takes three seconds.

Hilary 14:14

So why did Mary decide that she wanted to write lyrics for that? I mean, that's a big task to take an Oliver Nelson tune and and turn it into a song. Yeah. Why did she choose that? I mean, you can't speak for her in some ways, but you were, I'm sure you were part of the cra creative process.

Jeff 14:33

Oh, yeah, no, I'm always lurking about. Um there's a great tradition of jazz vocalise in which uh singers apply create new lyrics, both for compositions and for improvisations by jazz artists and figures like Eddie Jefferson and uh folks like that who have done John Hendricks, who have done remarkable things. Um, Mary has taken that technique and applied it to more contemporary repertoire. And as I said, she was always attracted to Oliver Nelson music. I think it has an inherent uh kind of lyricism to it. Um, what I really love about her approach is that there is a tendency sometimes for jazz vocalist writers to write about the artist themselves or talking about, you know, so-and-so played this or wrote this song and he was the king of saxophone. Oh, yeah, that's a great King Pleasure lyric. But Mary often takes the title of the tune and then finds the other possibilities. So in three seconds, she talks not only about the musical interval of the seconds, which is kind of the pun that Oliver Nelson was doing with the title of the tune, but also the interval of time, and then finds all the different meanings you can create by juxtaposing those two ways of looking at the lyric three seconds, and it's really clever.

Hilary 15:52

Yeah. It's it is very clever, but it's also uh a beautiful poetic uh response to the music in a way.

Jeff 16:02

Yes, I think so. And and she's applied that kind of uh that kind of intelligence and and insight into the lyrics of music of of Orney Coleman as well and other folks on her her other recordings.

Hilary 16:16

Yeah, indeed. Uh so now this album is uh getting out into the world. Are you planning on uh touring with the wildebeest boys?

Jeff 16:28

Boys and girls, yeah. We have a tour here in the States and the Northeast in the fall set up. Um would love to bring this music, of course, over to Europe. And again, okay. I I love the unique sounds that the Wildebeest group brings to this, and they're remarkable players. Uh, I'll give you their names pretty quickly. Mike McGuinness clarinet, Michelle Gentil flute, Sarah Schoenbeck on the bassoon, uh Katie Shayla on the oboe, and Nathan Kochi on the horn. But I also want to just slip in, hoping that my my band doesn't necessarily listen to this podcast, that the music also can be played by Woodwin quintets, and it's an exciting exploration. So maybe at some point there'll be an opportunity to work with an exciting quintet in Europe or someplace else in the world that would be excited to explore a new repertoire.

Hilary 17:23

Yeah, well, I can think of some artists within those at that instrumentation who I will definitely be sending this to uh in the in the hope that they might uh it might persuade them that that this is something that they would like to work with.

Jeff 17:38

That's wonderful. Thanks so much for that. I want to mention we did uh just about a month ago, we did a concert with a different uh Woodwin Quintet just because of scheduling things here in the New York area. But we had a very special guest artist on the flute, and that was Oliver Nelson Jr., the son of Oliver Nelson, who's a fine flute player, uh, lives in the Midwest in Indiana, and he came out and played uh his father's my arrangements of his father's music with Mary's new lyric and and played it. And it was just spectacular, and he just loved the way Mary had created lyrics for his father's music, and it was a really beautiful evening.

Hilary 18:17

That sounds very special. I think there is something about the ability of music to take something that was written, you know, decades ago and reinvent it, but put something, you know, add something to it. Each time something like that is played, there is something of today within it, which I think is wonderful.

Jeff 18:44

Absolutely. I think music, uh you know, when we deal with music that's been previously composed by other folks, it exists in its time, in its historical and cultural context. But at the same time, it's absolutely reinvented every time. If you go to the symphony and hear Beethoven, you're hearing that music being reinvented in that moment. And that's that's really the magic of music, uh, isn't it? Uh it exists in in time and context, and also completely out of context in time.

Hilary 19:14

Yes, indeed. And and uh, you know, I've been having conversations with all sorts of uh musicians about uh, you know, people like Beethoven and Mozart who were uh improvising at the piano and then writing that down, and then all of a sudden that is the you know concerto or the symphony or the whatever it is. Um but it starts as an improvisation.

Jeff 19:38

I think that's right, and there is another way to flip the coin on that because we think of uh wild uh improvisers such as Ornette Coleman, and some people might have an impression that his own approach to music making is somehow uh free and experimental and uh even on the border of undisciplined. But in fact, Ornek Holman is an incredibly disciplined composer who also created entirely notated works. So it goes both ways, you know, between the jazz and the classical.

Hilary 20:06

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think you can play like that without knowing exactly what you're doing.

Jeff 20:12

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Hilary 20:13

Fantastic. Oh, honestly, Jeff, it's such a pleasure to talk to you. So thank you so much for joining me.

Jeff 20:19

It's been wonderful, Hilary, and I'm glad that I found the zoom address this time.

Hilary 21:05

Thank you for joining me for the last sort of harmony as well. It's really interesting to get Jeff's perspective. These pieces of music by a bullet feel like some and the new lyrics by the way. What you listen to now is Lem and Thank you for joining me once more for the harmonious world. Have a great week.

Lyrics 21:50

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